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on this episode of skeptic oh we can all

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sit around and congratulate each other

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and say how smart we are because we've

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figured this out and everyone else seems

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to be dancing in the dark but I'd rather

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look at at what's going to change now

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what about sampar Nia's research what

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about the other research that's going on

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in near-death experience

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how are things going to change I see Sam

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par Nia's research being the threat of

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near-death experience research being

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co-opted by mainstream science he's not

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lookin to bust any paradigms he's

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looking to co-opt it and jam it back

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into materialism in some way the whole

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thing is not just near-death experience

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science it is the whole area of

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consciousness science it's the whole

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picture of so children remember past

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lives the near-death experience

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mediumship will be talk to people on the

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other side it's all of these things that

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tend to say the same thing that

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consciousness exists outside the body

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welcome to skeptical where we explore

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controversial science with leading

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researchers thinkers and their critics

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I'm your host Alex Karras and on this

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episode we talk about near-death

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experience science and in particular the

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upcoming international association for

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near-death experience studies that's

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coming up in September and we have with

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us dr. Allen who you know who is a board

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member with ions here to talk about this

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now you know originally I was just going

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to do a promo for the conference because

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I think it's a very valuable group that

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I like to support and promote and I

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think their conference is certainly

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going to be great they have some

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terrific speakers there and if

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interested in it I'm sure you'd enjoy

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visiting San Antonio and going to this

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but in talking to Ellen I was a little

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bit surprised I guess at my frustration

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with near-death experience science

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research and the potential problems of

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where it's heading I can't help but feel

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that there's a lot of parallels between

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parapsychology and near-death experience

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science in that when you try and get a

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little bit too cozy with mainstream

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science or try and accommodate and fit

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into the existing status quo you run the

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risk of losing your way I'm not sure

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that that's happening with near-death

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experience research but it's something

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that I felt like hashing out with our

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guest today dr. Ellen here you know this

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dialogue might be a little bit of inside

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baseball if you are not into near-death

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experience science and the research but

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it's a topic I care about so I did enjoy

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the chance to chat a little bit about it

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I hope you enjoy my dialogue with dr.

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Allan who you know today we welcome Alan

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you know to skeptic Code dr. Hugh Ginoza

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nationally recognized expert in physics

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and engineering sciences for which he

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holds a PhD and has many honors but more

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importantly to us Alan is someone who

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had a near-death experience some 40

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years ago and that experience has

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sent him on a really a lifelong mission

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to explore consciousness extended human

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consciousness and this phenomena of

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near-death experience Alan is a board

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member of the International Association

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for near-death studies ions and we're

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hoping he'll tell us a little bit more

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about what's going on what's going on at

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ions including their upcoming conference

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later this year

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he's also an active member of the

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Institute for noetic sciences ions of

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course we all know Dean Radin and Alan

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has actually collaborated with dr.

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Raiden with dr. Raiden on some of the

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work he's doing so we'll certainly want

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to talk to

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so we'll certainly want to talk about

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that as well Ellen it's a great pleasure

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to have you on thanks for joining me on

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skeptic oh I'm glad to be here Alex it's

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on opportunity to get the word out to

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people about what's really going on in

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trying okay well let's start with what

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the word is really going on bad ion

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since one of the reasons we want to have

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you on is because ions has a national

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conference actually an international

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conference every year this year it's

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going to be held in San Antonio and we

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certainly want to let people know the

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who what why and some of the reasons why

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they might want to consider checking

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that out so can you tell folks a little

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bit about the ions conference yeah the

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conference will be in San Antonio and

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it's a third through the 6th of

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September and we had some very excellent

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speakers there um this year it's a it's

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quite a program we have a four key

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featured speakers that are even

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Alexander most people know who he is it

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was a book they're proof of heaven and

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then there's Sue's and Iceland excuse a

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medium we used to be

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she's commander guys meant just to be a

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decanter goods

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Karen with the Joint Chiefs of Staff

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she's got quite a background she's a

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medium

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she you know she in 9/11

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and I let it happen she was in the air

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on Air Force One flying to London so

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that the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of

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Staff could be knighted by their Queen

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Elizabeth and I had to turn around a

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point home because being all the Gibson

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crashed into the $3.00 anything she'd

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get quite a background she's a quite a

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speaker she get is there we've got Annie

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Tamar Johnnie there and it's it's really

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going to be a very good conference for

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those who are interested in your death

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experience it's also a very scientific

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conference of the first day at the

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conference on Thursday will be all about

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research it's a very scientific day and

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then again even more metaphysical things

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on the weekend and so it makes a really

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great conference we change it just a

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little bit in a way so that if all of

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the more come let's see academic

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technologies I word things on one day

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and all of these knots are acting with

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tension another day well that's great

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and you know one of the things that I

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thought we might take the opportunity to

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talk a little bit about today in

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addition to letting people know that the

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conference's that come up coming and

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that will of course have a link in the

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show notes to this show is you know we

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had a little bit of an email exchange

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and I said hey we can just talk about

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the conference or we can talk more about

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kind of the state of near-death

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experience science and near-death

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experience research and you seem very

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willing to do that which is great

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because on this show we've talked to so

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many near-death experience researchers

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but we've also tried to figure out the

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bigger picture of what's going on with

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near-death experience science how it's

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relating to science in general what kind

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of changes we might expect to see so

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there's just a whole bunch of issues

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that I thought we might throw on the

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table and particularly since you are an

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eye on board member I thought could it I

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thought it'd be kind of neat to talk

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about the state of near-death experience

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science since you guys do publish many

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scholarly papers on that and you're up

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to date on the research so maybe we can

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into that yeah let's jump in the Sun

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define with me that's what I do is I

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actually lesser on the science of the

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afterlife well the great thing you know

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where I thought we'd start because

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probably the biggest news item I think

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for most people in the last year

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regarding near-death experience science

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would be the finally the eventual

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publication of the aware study led by

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dr. Sam Parr Nia formerly of Cornell now

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I think he's at university New York

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Stony Brook but I think C empar Nia is

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such an interesting figure within the

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near-death experience community any kind

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of embodies both the promise and the

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threat of near-death experience science

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so I sent you this quote and I thought

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this would be a great launching off

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point because again it kind of

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encapsulates I guess more my frustration

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with dr. Parr Nia than anything else but

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at least he is out there leading the

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charge with near-death experience

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science but he was quoted in this

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article talking about the aware study

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which is this comprehensive multi-year

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study of near-death experiences that he

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conducted and in emergency rooms in

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cardiac arrest wards where they put this

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computer that was displaying images up

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above the patient with the idea that the

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patient might have an out-of-body

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experience during their near-death

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experience and might be able to look at

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the computer screen and then report back

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to us what they saw and that would be

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some kind of conclusive proof that what

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these indie ears are saying is really

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true we did a couple of shows on that

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including an interview with dr. Parr Nia

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I thought it was really a misguided

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research project and a doomed to fail

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project he did get kind of a no result

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from it but here's the quote after all

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that that he wound up with it I found I

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just throw it out there before I ever

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offer any more opinions but this is from

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the piece he did in the BBC he was

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quoting the BBC and he said

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if the father of a child from the

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Midwest says when you die you'll see

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Jesus and he'll be full of love and

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compassion then of course he'll see that

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so and that's that's quite a quote yeah

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but couple couple a couple things that I

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want to say is one that your spirit

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experiment was sort of doomed to failure

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because it's very difficult to to create

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any experiments that can be set up in

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advance for a near-death experience

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and I have to congratulate him on trying

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you know this is have something that

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they could serve up if they were about

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the the operating table in the Pacific

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observing something maybe on the top of

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the lamp and then sealing somewhere you

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know it's really hard to come up with a

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good experiment everybody's always

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saying so how are you gonna prove your

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theory you know and to make it

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falsifiable and that's what we're trying

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to do so I prefer giving for that but go

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ahead with this question the the child

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would see that we sort of see apparently

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from all my studying I've been studying

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this for 40 years I study all the

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metaphysics as well as all the science

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on it and from all of the reporting back

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which some of its questionable and some

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of its very seems very positive it seems

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that what you think you're going to see

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is what you're going to see it's like

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quantum electrodynamics what you see is

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what you get I call it the observer

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principle we precipitate the reality

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we're looking for and it seems to be the

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same way in the afterlife so that's what

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he's saying there I don't think oh I

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don't think that's that's necessarily

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true I mean I think there's plenty of

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cases where people don't see what they

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00:11:54,820 --> 00:11:52,880
expect to see but in a larger sense I

274
00:11:57,250 --> 00:11:54,830
think the problem with it is is twofold

275
00:12:01,390 --> 00:11:57,260
I mean first I don't quite agree with

276
00:12:03,940 --> 00:12:01,400
that we need to give dr. parney a credit

277
00:12:06,490 --> 00:12:03,950
on this I think just the opposite I

278
00:12:09,190 --> 00:12:06,500
think we have to kind of pull the pull

279
00:12:11,500 --> 00:12:09,200
the lens back a little bit and say what

280
00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:11,510
what are what are you actually doing

281
00:12:18,190 --> 00:12:15,050
here what is the the presupposition

282
00:12:20,090 --> 00:12:18,200
that's made with this research I mean

283
00:12:23,269 --> 00:12:20,100
the idea that

284
00:12:26,870 --> 00:12:23,279
that we would put a computer screen up

285
00:12:28,790 --> 00:12:26,880
above the operating room because the

286
00:12:31,340 --> 00:12:28,800
person is going to float outside of

287
00:12:33,019 --> 00:12:31,350
their body I mean well I don't think

288
00:12:35,180 --> 00:12:33,029
it's a computer screen what we were

289
00:12:37,220 --> 00:12:35,190
doing in the aware study was putting a

290
00:12:39,079 --> 00:12:37,230
series of strange numbers or other

291
00:12:40,999 --> 00:12:39,089
objects that just shouldn't be up there

292
00:12:43,370 --> 00:12:41,009
now we put computers on here like put a

293
00:12:45,530 --> 00:12:43,380
computer screen up there I mean no I

294
00:12:48,170 --> 00:12:45,540
didn't you know there's this he did this

295
00:12:51,439 --> 00:12:48,180
and what if you have a cardiac arrest

296
00:12:54,199 --> 00:12:51,449
areas around the country and he may have

297
00:12:55,670 --> 00:12:54,209
had a computer readout up there but what

298
00:12:57,680 --> 00:12:55,680
there's what he was supposed to do is

299
00:12:59,600 --> 00:12:57,690
put objects that they would say this

300
00:13:01,400 --> 00:12:59,610
shouldn't be up there well he did both

301
00:13:03,319 --> 00:13:01,410
and started he started with one and he

302
00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:03,329
did not even get the point

303
00:13:09,319 --> 00:13:05,490
the point is the point is the same it's

304
00:13:11,509 --> 00:13:09,329
that why what all's we can ever say

305
00:13:14,470 --> 00:13:11,519
about near-death experience in my

306
00:13:17,689 --> 00:13:14,480
opinion is that it defies the

307
00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:17,699
materialistic reductionistic idea that

308
00:13:23,930 --> 00:13:21,050
your mind is a product of your brain

309
00:13:26,540 --> 00:13:23,940
everything beyond I mean that is the

310
00:13:29,300 --> 00:13:26,550
fundamental shift so when we start doing

311
00:13:32,300 --> 00:13:29,310
these dorky little you know do you see

312
00:13:34,249 --> 00:13:32,310
the number over on the wall I mean one

313
00:13:35,900 --> 00:13:34,259
how many people have an out-of-body

314
00:13:37,999 --> 00:13:35,910
experience when they have another body

315
00:13:39,379 --> 00:13:38,009
don't forget one one-fifth of cardiac

316
00:13:41,980 --> 00:13:39,389
arrest people have a near-death

317
00:13:44,420 --> 00:13:41,990
experience and out of those maybe

318
00:13:45,650 --> 00:13:44,430
one-third will have an experience where

319
00:13:47,210 --> 00:13:45,660
they felt they were in the top of the

320
00:13:49,819 --> 00:13:47,220
room somewhere on probably we're down to

321
00:13:51,410 --> 00:13:49,829
a very small number but to design an

322
00:13:52,429 --> 00:13:51,420
experiment is very difficult anyway I

323
00:13:53,900 --> 00:13:52,439
don't want to get too much into

324
00:13:55,699 --> 00:13:53,910
experiment design I just want to say

325
00:13:57,889 --> 00:13:55,709
it's very difficult to design design

326
00:14:01,189 --> 00:13:57,899
experiments that can bring results to

327
00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:01,199
prove things I worked extensively with

328
00:14:06,050 --> 00:14:04,170
the noetic Society doing mediumship and

329
00:14:07,749 --> 00:14:06,060
it's very difficult to design

330
00:14:10,009 --> 00:14:07,759
experiments that can prove something

331
00:14:13,309 --> 00:14:10,019
well let me take some work

332
00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:13,319
so of course science of courses in the

333
00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:15,810
game of proving it is it is it is the

334
00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:17,250
situation that you're talking about

335
00:14:20,929 --> 00:14:18,930
about Paulo

336
00:14:22,610 --> 00:14:20,939
it's either the brain creates

337
00:14:25,819 --> 00:14:22,620
consciousness or consciousness created

338
00:14:30,069 --> 00:14:25,829
the brain okay that's the question

339
00:14:33,650 --> 00:14:30,079
materialism says the brain evolved and

340
00:14:35,750 --> 00:14:33,660
unconscious matter

341
00:14:39,140 --> 00:14:35,760
we evolved the human being with the

342
00:14:40,550 --> 00:14:39,150
brain that thinks and is conscious okay

343
00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:40,560
does that make any sense out of

344
00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:42,650
unconscious you have all consciousness

345
00:14:47,390 --> 00:14:45,090
let's look at it the other way around

346
00:14:48,980 --> 00:14:47,400
let's suppose that we have consciousness

347
00:14:51,220 --> 00:14:48,990
and it evolves the whole universe that

348
00:14:54,170 --> 00:14:51,230
makes a lot more sense doesn't it

349
00:14:57,560 --> 00:14:54,180
how does consciousness arise out of an

350
00:15:00,350 --> 00:14:57,570
unconscious chemicals coming together

351
00:15:03,140 --> 00:15:00,360
and forming human beings and that think

352
00:15:04,970 --> 00:15:03,150
to enter conscious it sure looks like

353
00:15:08,630 --> 00:15:04,980
it's following a pattern doesn't it that

354
00:15:11,300 --> 00:15:08,640
we are evolving upwards so what's

355
00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:11,310
creating that pattern materialists as

356
00:15:15,550 --> 00:15:13,170
well it's just the laws of physics yes

357
00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:15,560
who who enforces those laws of physics

358
00:15:20,780 --> 00:15:18,810
what enforces those laws of physics I'm

359
00:15:24,830 --> 00:15:20,790
not speaking for a god but I am speaking

360
00:15:27,380 --> 00:15:24,840
for a plan there is some consciousness

361
00:15:28,970 --> 00:15:27,390
in the universe universe and I want to

362
00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:28,980
come up give you a quote that's and came

363
00:15:34,490 --> 00:15:31,530
out yesterday and this is a quote by

364
00:15:37,190 --> 00:15:34,500
Gideon Lichfield who's the senior editor

365
00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:37,200
for atlantic's global news and youth the

366
00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:38,970
global news editor for Atlantic sports

367
00:15:43,190 --> 00:15:41,730
magazine and here's what he said

368
00:15:44,950 --> 00:15:43,200
yesterday and this was online you can

369
00:15:46,970 --> 00:15:44,960
look it up my Manticore it's about me

370
00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:46,980
it's in the middle of a long creature

371
00:15:51,050 --> 00:15:49,650
article telling you no lectures on the

372
00:15:53,060 --> 00:15:51,060
leading-edge science of the afterlife

373
00:15:55,490 --> 00:15:53,070
and he concluded that the entire

374
00:15:57,380 --> 00:15:55,500
universe is conscious and that this

375
00:16:00,410 --> 00:15:57,390
explains both near-death experiences and

376
00:16:02,660 --> 00:16:00,420
certain paradoxes of quantum theory as

377
00:16:04,730 --> 00:16:02,670
someone with a physics degree I know

378
00:16:06,740 --> 00:16:04,740
that you can owes basic idea of

379
00:16:09,950 --> 00:16:06,750
consciousness universe is neither crazy

380
00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:09,960
nor new parent Schrodinger one of the

381
00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:12,570
fathers of quantum physics was an avid

382
00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:14,370
student defender philosophy and believed

383
00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:17,010
something similar and that's the end of

384
00:16:22,180 --> 00:16:18,930
this quote his article yesterday was all

385
00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:22,190
about our last convention that the

386
00:16:26,270 --> 00:16:24,450
International Association for studies

387
00:16:29,270 --> 00:16:26,280
had and he interviewed quite a few of us

388
00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:29,280
during that article but that's what he

389
00:16:32,090 --> 00:16:29,730
said

390
00:16:33,860 --> 00:16:32,100
this is not a new idea this is the same

391
00:16:38,350 --> 00:16:33,870
idea that the people who gave us quantum

392
00:16:41,300 --> 00:16:38,360
physics had that consciousness precedes

393
00:16:45,530 --> 00:16:41,310
the brain not the other way around

394
00:16:47,090 --> 00:16:45,540
it's if you go back and look at the

395
00:16:50,770 --> 00:16:47,100
premises which

396
00:16:53,180 --> 00:16:50,780
underline materialism they're all

397
00:16:56,830 --> 00:16:53,190
assumptions or presumptions that were

398
00:17:01,580 --> 00:16:56,840
made back in the 17th and 18th centuries

399
00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:01,590
and those are reality locality causality

400
00:17:08,150 --> 00:17:04,490
continuity and determinism all of those

401
00:17:12,350 --> 00:17:08,160
concepts were assumed to be self-evident

402
00:17:15,860 --> 00:17:12,360
and all of them have been disproved by

403
00:17:18,380 --> 00:17:15,870
quantum theory the last one to fall was

404
00:17:21,170 --> 00:17:18,390
locality and John bells theory of

405
00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:21,180
nonlocality which has been proven now I

406
00:17:25,310 --> 00:17:23,010
think 11 times and 11 different

407
00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:25,320
experiments throughout the world they've

408
00:17:31,310 --> 00:17:29,250
shown that there is no space the space

409
00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:31,320
is an illusion you're sitting in space

410
00:17:36,860 --> 00:17:33,090
you feel the room around you that's an

411
00:17:38,270 --> 00:17:36,870
illusion quantum physics proves this and

412
00:17:39,890 --> 00:17:38,280
anyone who says well I want to believe

413
00:17:41,360 --> 00:17:39,900
materialism now I believe quantum

414
00:17:42,980 --> 00:17:41,370
physics okay then get rid of your cell

415
00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:42,990
phone and anything with a transistor in

416
00:17:46,810 --> 00:17:45,450
it get rid of your MRIs get rid of all

417
00:17:49,790 --> 00:17:46,820
those things because quantum

418
00:17:51,530 --> 00:17:49,800
electrodynamics is the theory which

419
00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:51,540
allows those things it's the most proven

420
00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:53,970
theory they're all of science yeah but

421
00:17:58,430 --> 00:17:56,250
Allen hold on we've been died have a

422
00:18:01,310 --> 00:17:58,440
hundred and 50 shows that say exactly

423
00:18:05,330 --> 00:18:01,320
the same thing the fact of the matter is

424
00:18:09,050 --> 00:18:05,340
were in this place that were that we are

425
00:18:12,530 --> 00:18:09,060
with science with science marching on

426
00:18:15,050 --> 00:18:12,540
and not accepting this model that you're

427
00:18:18,110 --> 00:18:15,060
talking about not as they have for the

428
00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:18,120
last at least 80 years if not hundred

429
00:18:23,060 --> 00:18:20,970
years so I think what we need to do is

430
00:18:24,290 --> 00:18:23,070
hone in on you know what's going to

431
00:18:26,060 --> 00:18:24,300
change we can all sit around and

432
00:18:28,100 --> 00:18:26,070
congratulate each other and say how

433
00:18:29,750 --> 00:18:28,110
smart we are because we've figured this

434
00:18:32,330 --> 00:18:29,760
out and everyone else seems to be

435
00:18:35,510 --> 00:18:32,340
dancing in the dark but I'd rather look

436
00:18:38,510 --> 00:18:35,520
at at what's going to change now what

437
00:18:40,670 --> 00:18:38,520
about Sam Parr Nia's research what about

438
00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:40,680
the other research that's going on in

439
00:18:45,380 --> 00:18:42,570
near-death experience how are things

440
00:18:48,530 --> 00:18:45,390
going to change and I see two Pro I see

441
00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:48,540
Sam par Nia's research being the threat

442
00:18:54,140 --> 00:18:51,450
of near-death experience research being

443
00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:54,150
co-opted by mainstream science if you

444
00:18:58,070 --> 00:18:56,250
really look at what Sam Varney is saying

445
00:18:59,240 --> 00:18:58,080
and he has a lot of doublespeak in what

446
00:19:00,360 --> 00:18:59,250
he's saying but you know when I

447
00:19:03,030 --> 00:19:00,370
interviewed him a couple year

448
00:19:05,370 --> 00:19:03,040
ago his conclusion was that if he had to

449
00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:05,380
be if he was going to be pushed he would

450
00:19:11,310 --> 00:19:08,290
suspect that near-death experiences are

451
00:19:13,670 --> 00:19:11,320
and this is a quote a trick of the mind

452
00:19:16,470 --> 00:19:13,680
in other words mind equals brain

453
00:19:18,810 --> 00:19:16,480
materialism reductionism still holds

454
00:19:20,790 --> 00:19:18,820
there's just some kind of feature of it

455
00:19:23,250 --> 00:19:20,800
that we have to find that does

456
00:19:25,970 --> 00:19:23,260
near-death experience science I think

457
00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:25,980
he's still trying to jam the near-death

458
00:19:32,940 --> 00:19:29,530
experience back into traditional science

459
00:19:34,950 --> 00:19:32,950
back into his resuscitation model which

460
00:19:37,890 --> 00:19:34,960
he's very good at he's a recognized

461
00:19:40,890 --> 00:19:37,900
worldwide leader and resuscitation but

462
00:19:44,430 --> 00:19:40,900
he's not lookin to bust any paradigms

463
00:19:47,790 --> 00:19:44,440
he's lookin to co-opt it and jam it back

464
00:19:51,299 --> 00:19:47,800
into materialism in some way and so are

465
00:19:52,740 --> 00:19:51,309
many other cutting-edge researchers you

466
00:19:53,900 --> 00:19:52,750
know the people always get pushed and

467
00:19:57,110 --> 00:19:53,910
another guy has been on the show

468
00:20:00,000 --> 00:19:57,120
recognized leader researcher in

469
00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:00,010
consciousness is Christof Koch from

470
00:20:05,610 --> 00:20:02,770
Caltech you know and there's a guy who

471
00:20:07,950 --> 00:20:05,620
seems to be kind of dabbling with the

472
00:20:09,900 --> 00:20:07,960
idea that it can be more but he only

473
00:20:12,540 --> 00:20:09,910
holds that out and then he pulls people

474
00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:12,550
back no don't worry it might be down at

475
00:20:16,460 --> 00:20:14,530
the quantum level but eventually we'll

476
00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:16,470
find a way to explain it in

477
00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:19,090
materialistic terms that's I think the

478
00:20:23,820 --> 00:20:20,530
threat that near-death experience

479
00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:23,830
science is facing well it's all the

480
00:20:27,750 --> 00:20:25,450
whole thing and this is what I say in my

481
00:20:30,030 --> 00:20:27,760
book the death experience the whole

482
00:20:33,180 --> 00:20:30,040
thing is not just near-death experience

483
00:20:35,460 --> 00:20:33,190
science it is the whole area of

484
00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:35,470
consciousness science consciousness

485
00:20:39,299 --> 00:20:37,090
outside of the body and that's what goes

486
00:20:41,820 --> 00:20:39,309
on the consciousness research laboratory

487
00:20:45,419 --> 00:20:41,830
at the neurotic Society where we could

488
00:20:48,930 --> 00:20:45,429
be in a tent and doctor our nerd alarm

489
00:20:53,790 --> 00:20:48,940
and alarms the one that made the AED

490
00:20:56,580 --> 00:20:53,800
system with 32 connections on the head

491
00:20:57,930 --> 00:20:56,590
of whoever is looking at he's he created

492
00:21:00,240 --> 00:20:57,940
the program everybody isn't throughout

493
00:21:02,490 --> 00:21:00,250
the world and he is researching

494
00:21:06,780 --> 00:21:02,500
mediumship because mediumship occurs

495
00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:06,790
outside of the the arm the consciousness

496
00:21:12,090 --> 00:21:08,650
of the medium and they've shown with

497
00:21:14,070 --> 00:21:12,100
their 2012 study that when a medium is

498
00:21:16,049 --> 00:21:14,080
doing mediumship they're doing something

499
00:21:17,370 --> 00:21:16,059
totally different than they are when

500
00:21:19,769 --> 00:21:17,380
they're doing creative imaginative

501
00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:19,779
things and that's a whole study you need

502
00:21:22,980 --> 00:21:21,730
to read you know people have to read it

503
00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:22,990
to actually get it but what they're

504
00:21:27,870 --> 00:21:25,570
saying is when if you're imagining and

505
00:21:30,180 --> 00:21:27,880
thinking and creative you have alpha and

506
00:21:31,590 --> 00:21:30,190
beta waves in your head and the medians

507
00:21:33,149 --> 00:21:31,600
are doing their work they only have

508
00:21:35,940 --> 00:21:33,159
gamma waves in their head in the

509
00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:35,950
Galloway's are muscle movements their

510
00:21:40,769 --> 00:21:38,890
eyes ears and feelings and they're -

511
00:21:42,630 --> 00:21:40,779
they're receiving and then he can show

512
00:21:45,539 --> 00:21:42,640
how they're receiving from outside their

513
00:21:47,430 --> 00:21:45,549
body something and we pretty much

514
00:21:49,470 --> 00:21:47,440
establish that and this is consciousness

515
00:21:51,899 --> 00:21:49,480
research so it's not just the near-death

516
00:21:54,090 --> 00:21:51,909
experience it's the whole picture of so

517
00:21:56,009 --> 00:21:54,100
children remember past lives the

518
00:21:58,980 --> 00:21:56,019
near-death experience mediumship will be

519
00:22:01,680 --> 00:21:58,990
talk to people on the other side it's

520
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:01,690
all of these things that tend to say the

521
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:04,570
same thing that consciousness exists

522
00:22:08,879 --> 00:22:07,450
outside the body and all these areas of

523
00:22:11,430 --> 00:22:08,889
science are coming together and

524
00:22:13,830 --> 00:22:11,440
collating with each other and creating

525
00:22:17,370 --> 00:22:13,840
replications not the kind of replication

526
00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:17,380
that that a materialist will think about

527
00:22:20,970 --> 00:22:19,090
they want somebody who is a total

528
00:22:23,250 --> 00:22:20,980
skeptic you get the same result as the

529
00:22:25,529 --> 00:22:23,260
person who wasn't a skeptic and we know

530
00:22:28,049 --> 00:22:25,539
from quantum physics that that doesn't

531
00:22:29,820 --> 00:22:28,059
work from the observer principle and

532
00:22:32,370 --> 00:22:29,830
we've known this for 80 years they

533
00:22:35,490 --> 00:22:32,380
refuse to accept that quantum level of

534
00:22:37,019 --> 00:22:35,500
thinking and here's the problems they're

535
00:22:38,730 --> 00:22:37,029
always trying to push it back into the

536
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:38,740
materialist view point but the

537
00:22:44,100 --> 00:22:42,010
materialist viewpoint is based on those

538
00:22:48,649 --> 00:22:44,110
same things causality

539
00:22:51,870 --> 00:22:48,659
determine determination determinism

540
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:51,880
locality continuity all those things

541
00:22:57,870 --> 00:22:54,490
have been disproved by quantum physics

542
00:22:59,639 --> 00:22:57,880
they're not true not the best one that

543
00:23:03,990 --> 00:22:59,649
we have again is nonlocality

544
00:23:05,759 --> 00:23:04,000
it proves there is no space now I'm

545
00:23:07,259 --> 00:23:05,769
Stein had trouble with that he was okay

546
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:07,269
with him if there was no time in

547
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:09,730
relativity right he's like I don't know

548
00:23:14,820 --> 00:23:12,010
Evers principles it was a great

549
00:23:17,730 --> 00:23:14,830
classical physicist and and and all he

550
00:23:19,769 --> 00:23:17,740
said was it doesn't seem right to have a

551
00:23:23,070 --> 00:23:19,779
state I love talking about Schrodinger

552
00:23:25,110 --> 00:23:23,080
and Einstein and uh Niels Bohr and all

553
00:23:27,990 --> 00:23:25,120
the rest um and it's awesome but it's

554
00:23:31,500 --> 00:23:28,000
it's a it's a history

555
00:23:34,110 --> 00:23:31,510
exactly where we are now of just kind of

556
00:23:36,210 --> 00:23:34,120
treading water and telling everyone how

557
00:23:38,010 --> 00:23:36,220
dumb they are and how quantum physics

558
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:38,020
has already proven all this in the

559
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:40,210
meanwhile the band keeps playing the

560
00:23:45,420 --> 00:23:42,970
same old song so hey I think ions is

561
00:23:47,100 --> 00:23:45,430
doing awesome work I think Dean Radin

562
00:23:50,310 --> 00:23:47,110
zzyx work with the double slit

563
00:23:53,010 --> 00:23:50,320
experiment is phenomenally impressive

564
00:23:55,110 --> 00:23:53,020
and it really gets to the heart of your

565
00:23:57,510 --> 00:23:55,120
point about how quantum physics has

566
00:23:59,790 --> 00:23:57,520
known this for 80 years and yet they've

567
00:24:02,010 --> 00:23:59,800
choose to do the shut shut up and

568
00:24:03,990 --> 00:24:02,020
calculate thing and totally bypass it

569
00:24:05,670 --> 00:24:04,000
and Raiden is gone and say hey wait a

570
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:05,680
minute guys you want more proof I'll

571
00:24:11,220 --> 00:24:08,650
prove it to you right here but I don't

572
00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:11,230
like skipping past you know saw we're

573
00:24:15,990 --> 00:24:13,810
talking about near-death experience

574
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:16,000
science and then we say well you know

575
00:24:19,770 --> 00:24:17,650
you don't like our near-death experience

576
00:24:21,510 --> 00:24:19,780
science that's okay we'll roll this out

577
00:24:23,370 --> 00:24:21,520
and we'll show something else hey this

578
00:24:26,820 --> 00:24:23,380
is what I do all the time I talk about

579
00:24:28,830 --> 00:24:26,830
this stuff all the time so I can see the

580
00:24:31,740 --> 00:24:28,840
advantages of saying it's consciousness

581
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:31,750
in general it's nonlocality I think all

582
00:24:35,340 --> 00:24:33,490
that stuff is true I think it's proven

583
00:24:38,070 --> 00:24:35,350
in a number of different ways he'll the

584
00:24:40,500 --> 00:24:38,080
placebo and the SIBO effect proves it

585
00:24:43,110 --> 00:24:40,510
hypnosis proves it self-directed

586
00:24:45,180 --> 00:24:43,120
neuroplasticity proves it we've proven

587
00:24:48,870 --> 00:24:45,190
it all over the place but the challenge

588
00:24:51,900 --> 00:24:48,880
is you're a board member of ions so what

589
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:51,910
is near-death experience doing to

590
00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:54,610
advance the ball and if we can't call

591
00:25:00,660 --> 00:24:57,490
out people like Sam Parr Nia and

592
00:25:02,550 --> 00:25:00,670
critically analyze his work and say

593
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:02,560
whether that kind of because it's the

594
00:25:07,020 --> 00:25:05,050
cutting-edge you know it's what's gotten

595
00:25:09,090 --> 00:25:07,030
some funding if we can't say whether

596
00:25:10,710 --> 00:25:09,100
that's going to move us forward or not

597
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:10,720
then I think we're not making progress

598
00:25:14,940 --> 00:25:13,090
and that brings me to the second part of

599
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:14,950
that Sam Carney a quote that I find

600
00:25:20,790 --> 00:25:18,250
really troubling is that and you know

601
00:25:23,010 --> 00:25:20,800
when when you die you'll see Jesus and

602
00:25:24,660 --> 00:25:23,020
be full of love and compassion well if

603
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:24,670
your father tells you that then you'll

604
00:25:29,430 --> 00:25:27,490
see Jesus hey this is really the

605
00:25:31,530 --> 00:25:29,440
question so he doesn't want to go on

606
00:25:34,860 --> 00:25:31,540
that third rail and he now wants to talk

607
00:25:37,140 --> 00:25:34,870
about putting down Jesus and you know

608
00:25:38,830 --> 00:25:37,150
what people might see in that spiritual

609
00:25:41,020 --> 00:25:38,840
realm we are not

610
00:25:44,470 --> 00:25:41,030
in a position to do that we'd love to

611
00:25:47,230 --> 00:25:44,480
placate the atheist scientific community

612
00:25:49,660 --> 00:25:47,240
but really if we're going to be honest

613
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:49,670
what the near-death experience science

614
00:25:55,060 --> 00:25:52,490
tells us is all that stuff is on the

615
00:25:57,220 --> 00:25:55,070
table that we do have to find a way to

616
00:25:59,590 --> 00:25:57,230
kind of wrangle in the idea that people

617
00:26:02,860 --> 00:25:59,600
do see Jesus or Christ consciousness

618
00:26:06,490 --> 00:26:02,870
they see Buddha they see Krishna they

619
00:26:10,330 --> 00:26:06,500
see a spirit beings I mean that's part

620
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:10,340
of the experience so we can bifurcate

621
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:12,410
that and say okay did you leave your

622
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:14,690
body and were you able to see that but

623
00:26:19,360 --> 00:26:16,970
once we incorporate that in we have to

624
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:19,370
go there don't we we can't sidestep this

625
00:26:24,670 --> 00:26:22,010
with this you know kind of placating the

626
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:24,680
atheists and and with the Jesus thing

627
00:26:30,850 --> 00:26:27,410
well here's what I have to say when I

628
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:30,860
had my near-death experience I went and

629
00:26:37,780 --> 00:26:34,850
I arrived with a being of light and I

630
00:26:41,020 --> 00:26:37,790
voted down as soon as I came back the

631
00:26:44,140 --> 00:26:41,030
being of light did not identify C or C

632
00:26:45,910 --> 00:26:44,150
or itself as being male female or

633
00:26:48,850 --> 00:26:45,920
otherwise it was definitely a personal

634
00:26:52,690 --> 00:26:48,860
being did not identify itself as Krishna

635
00:26:55,120 --> 00:26:52,700
Buddha Christ Jesus unto Allah Akhbar

636
00:26:58,510 --> 00:26:55,130
whatever and that none of that didn't

637
00:27:01,660 --> 00:26:58,520
identified self of being any of that and

638
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:01,670
a very interesting discussion I had with

639
00:27:08,730 --> 00:27:06,290
a gentleman who he he likes to Fortier

640
00:27:12,460 --> 00:27:08,740
is his name that's name is Hylton have

641
00:27:15,610 --> 00:27:12,470
prepared and he tortured himself using

642
00:27:18,550 --> 00:27:15,620
the oval Allah through the look of

643
00:27:20,890 --> 00:27:18,560
pursue a Vision Quest system of hanging

644
00:27:23,590 --> 00:27:20,900
himself by his muscles from a tree with

645
00:27:25,810 --> 00:27:23,600
spikes in his chest he did all those

646
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:25,820
things because that made sense to him

647
00:27:30,250 --> 00:27:28,490
and he passed over to the other side

648
00:27:32,410 --> 00:27:30,260
literally had a near-death experience by

649
00:27:36,220 --> 00:27:32,420
scaring itself out of his body through

650
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:36,230
too much pain and he he met up with the

651
00:27:42,220 --> 00:27:39,530
light and the light he said Who I am the

652
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:42,230
life is oh do you want me to be and that

653
00:27:46,420 --> 00:27:44,930
was his experience and so taking his

654
00:27:49,360 --> 00:27:46,430
experience in life spreads the light

655
00:27:51,310 --> 00:27:49,370
doesn't identified so what Sam's really

656
00:27:52,340 --> 00:27:51,320
saying there is if you think experiences

657
00:27:55,850 --> 00:27:52,350
people

658
00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:55,860
Buddha is Buddha is whatever you think

659
00:28:00,169 --> 00:27:57,450
that's what the light is but the truth

660
00:28:02,539 --> 00:28:00,179
is the light is just being alike the

661
00:28:05,180 --> 00:28:02,549
truth is we don't know Allen the truth

662
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:05,190
is we can't say that we can't dismiss

663
00:28:11,419 --> 00:28:08,730
repair I can say what I thought but it

664
00:28:14,419 --> 00:28:11,429
just isn't good science to generalize

665
00:28:16,820 --> 00:28:14,429
that and say therefore the being of

666
00:28:19,789 --> 00:28:16,830
light is whoever we want it to be there

667
00:28:22,130 --> 00:28:19,799
are people that have reported it's been

668
00:28:25,610 --> 00:28:22,140
very public you know seeing Jesus

669
00:28:27,169 --> 00:28:25,620
feeling jesus's wounds having that being

670
00:28:29,409 --> 00:28:27,179
tell them they are Jesus

671
00:28:32,930 --> 00:28:29,419
I interviewed pastor Howard storm

672
00:28:37,130 --> 00:28:32,940
well-known near-death experiencer a very

673
00:28:38,990 --> 00:28:37,140
open guy but very overtly Christian in

674
00:28:41,630 --> 00:28:39,000
terms of his understanding of the

675
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:41,640
experience are we going to go and tell

676
00:28:46,610 --> 00:28:44,730
those people that that's somehow not

677
00:28:48,980 --> 00:28:46,620
true and that your experience is more

678
00:28:52,010 --> 00:28:48,990
authentic because it was kind of this

679
00:28:53,060 --> 00:28:52,020
generalized experience here's what I

680
00:28:56,149 --> 00:28:53,070
want to say to that

681
00:28:59,419 --> 00:28:56,159
okay and I want to have would put my

682
00:29:02,440 --> 00:28:59,429
mouth what I want to say is this all of

683
00:29:05,630 --> 00:29:02,450
the religions are partially right and

684
00:29:10,490 --> 00:29:05,640
they can't all be completely right

685
00:29:12,710 --> 00:29:10,500
because they all disagree okay so that's

686
00:29:14,659 --> 00:29:12,720
a very scientific viewpoint all the

687
00:29:17,380 --> 00:29:14,669
religions talking about the other side

688
00:29:20,029 --> 00:29:17,390
and afterlife and all of that are

689
00:29:24,140 --> 00:29:20,039
partially right what happens over time

690
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:24,150
is if someone comes back and says well

691
00:29:28,669 --> 00:29:26,730
okay I want to run I saw the light and

692
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:28,679
the light was like this it was as if he

693
00:29:33,380 --> 00:29:31,770
was dressed in white robes well then

694
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:33,390
they'll write that down a pretty soon it

695
00:29:38,750 --> 00:29:35,370
becomes he was dressed in white clothes

696
00:29:41,419 --> 00:29:38,760
and he was at he and all the all the

697
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:41,429
experiencer was saying what it was as if

698
00:29:46,789 --> 00:29:44,210
this being aligned if he was that he was

699
00:29:49,039 --> 00:29:46,799
dressed in white robes he was in this

700
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:49,049
beautiful white lights but it will

701
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:51,090
become interpreted by those on this side

702
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:52,650
who have not gone there and done that

703
00:29:58,399 --> 00:29:55,530
that he was dressed in white robes and

704
00:30:00,980 --> 00:29:58,409
that's how you get all this these

705
00:30:04,370 --> 00:30:00,990
religious beliefs that are this is how

706
00:30:06,230 --> 00:30:04,380
it must be and we have thousands of

707
00:30:08,210 --> 00:30:06,240
different religious viewpoints

708
00:30:10,070 --> 00:30:08,220
in the world all of them thinking that

709
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:10,080
they're absolutely right and if they

710
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:12,570
can't all be absolutely right from the

711
00:30:16,460 --> 00:30:14,730
scientific viewpoint so I'm not trying

712
00:30:19,370 --> 00:30:16,470
to generalize are not trying to say

713
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:19,380
they're wrong what I'm trying to say is

714
00:30:24,410 --> 00:30:21,690
we need to look at all of the religions

715
00:30:27,050 --> 00:30:24,420
and see where they agree where my

716
00:30:29,060 --> 00:30:27,060
chapters in the book I wrote is showing

717
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:29,070
that how all the religions come from the

718
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:33,810
same root and how they all have got

719
00:30:39,620 --> 00:30:38,010
added on Anela : speculations of people

720
00:30:42,110 --> 00:30:39,630
not just trying to explain it to

721
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:42,120
somebody else one time I was listening

722
00:30:45,710 --> 00:30:43,890
to a guy and he said well we all signed

723
00:30:47,630 --> 00:30:45,720
contracts before we came here

724
00:30:49,940 --> 00:30:47,640
oh I didn't see any contracts on the

725
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:49,950
other side that's a great way to explain

726
00:30:54,410 --> 00:30:52,290
it that we came here with a life plan

727
00:30:55,850 --> 00:30:54,420
that we're trying to carry out and

728
00:30:57,620 --> 00:30:55,860
that's what he's really trying to say

729
00:30:59,630 --> 00:30:57,630
with the contract but I I don't think

730
00:31:02,030 --> 00:30:59,640
they're signing written contracts that

731
00:31:04,460 --> 00:31:02,040
are filed and in God's file drawer

732
00:31:07,580 --> 00:31:04,470
somewhere okay that's that's a whole lot

733
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:07,590
of speculation that has become doctrine

734
00:31:11,060 --> 00:31:08,970
to some people and I think well that's

735
00:31:12,710 --> 00:31:11,070
how it must be we'll know that's how

736
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:12,720
someone tried to explain into someone

737
00:31:15,740 --> 00:31:14,370
else tried to explain what the first

738
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:15,750
person who tried to explain and if

739
00:31:19,100 --> 00:31:17,730
you've ever gone to a party where four

740
00:31:21,500 --> 00:31:19,110
people are whispering in each other's

741
00:31:23,150 --> 00:31:21,510
ear are you whispering one-day idea that

742
00:31:24,620 --> 00:31:23,160
there's fourth person it doesn't have

743
00:31:26,810 --> 00:31:24,630
the same message at the end and that's

744
00:31:29,540 --> 00:31:26,820
what happens over generations with

745
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:29,550
scriptures and doctrines and religions

746
00:31:33,770 --> 00:31:31,890
they get to where they're saying well

747
00:31:35,750 --> 00:31:33,780
it's got to be baptism by immersion and

748
00:31:37,970 --> 00:31:35,760
there's no it doesn't have to be baptism

749
00:31:39,230 --> 00:31:37,980
by immersion so there is baptism is done

750
00:31:43,850 --> 00:31:39,240
by sprinkling and this was a big

751
00:31:44,990 --> 00:31:43,860
argument over nothing okay I'm just I

752
00:31:48,650 --> 00:31:45,000
don't know

753
00:31:50,660 --> 00:31:48,660
well me yep me not all wrong there right

754
00:31:52,330 --> 00:31:50,670
on the central core and then they all

755
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:52,340
give her a whole lot on all the

756
00:31:57,140 --> 00:31:55,530
unimportant stuff maybe but I think a

757
00:31:59,660 --> 00:31:57,150
lot of people including myself would be

758
00:32:02,480 --> 00:31:59,670
a very uncomfortable when we apply the

759
00:32:03,890 --> 00:32:02,490
word science to what you're just talking

760
00:32:06,590 --> 00:32:03,900
about I mean that's just your

761
00:32:09,980 --> 00:32:06,600
interpretation of what's happening so I

762
00:32:12,770 --> 00:32:09,990
think we're all struggling with how we

763
00:32:15,740 --> 00:32:12,780
can't sorry people science is not a

764
00:32:18,140 --> 00:32:15,750
written code somewhere this is the way

765
00:32:20,029 --> 00:32:18,150
the world is science is a method of

766
00:32:22,969 --> 00:32:20,039
finding out the truth and

767
00:32:24,739 --> 00:32:22,979
by collating all the facts and so what I

768
00:32:26,570 --> 00:32:24,749
was just doing with religion is very

769
00:32:28,700 --> 00:32:26,580
much like is trying to take all the

770
00:32:30,950 --> 00:32:28,710
facts and make them all fit together

771
00:32:32,479 --> 00:32:30,960
that's what science is you have to take

772
00:32:34,489 --> 00:32:32,489
in the stuff the degrees and the stuff

773
00:32:37,849 --> 00:32:34,499
that disagrees and try to come up with a

774
00:32:39,769 --> 00:32:37,859
new paradigm a new view of how all that

775
00:32:41,779 --> 00:32:39,779
could fit together and that becomes your

776
00:32:44,269 --> 00:32:41,789
new hypothesis until you get a new fact

777
00:32:46,729 --> 00:32:44,279
and we've got got to squeeze that one

778
00:32:48,799 --> 00:32:46,739
into the existing hypothesis hypothesis

779
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:48,809
and what's happening in the materialist

780
00:32:54,219 --> 00:32:50,970
world is they're refusing to look at the

781
00:32:59,210 --> 00:32:54,229
data of all the metaphysical parts of

782
00:33:01,729 --> 00:32:59,220
the world and physics is our study of 3d

783
00:33:03,229 --> 00:33:01,739
plus time and metaphysics is everything

784
00:33:05,359 --> 00:33:03,239
outside and we can go back to the start

785
00:33:07,249 --> 00:33:05,369
and talk about that but that's what what

786
00:33:10,609 --> 00:33:07,259
metaphysics is is everything outside of

787
00:33:14,479 --> 00:33:10,619
physics and our worldview must contain

788
00:33:18,049 --> 00:33:14,489
both physics and metaphysics and our

789
00:33:20,239 --> 00:33:18,059
worldview has to be complete we can't

790
00:33:24,379 --> 00:33:20,249
say I'm one of the one of the

791
00:33:25,879 --> 00:33:24,389
professor's at Caltech was saying that

792
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:25,889
he can't find any place for

793
00:33:29,989 --> 00:33:27,690
consciousness to exist when inside the

794
00:33:31,489 --> 00:33:29,999
standard model and that's so ridiculous

795
00:33:34,099 --> 00:33:31,499
because this starts good consciousness

796
00:33:36,139 --> 00:33:34,109
outside the standard model and yet he

797
00:33:38,989 --> 00:33:36,149
was actually saying that and and quoting

798
00:33:40,849 --> 00:33:38,999
that as a truth and you can't find

799
00:33:43,460 --> 00:33:40,859
consciousness within the standard model

800
00:33:45,529 --> 00:33:43,470
in quantum physics quantum

801
00:33:48,649 --> 00:33:45,539
electrodynamics requires consciousness

802
00:33:51,739 --> 00:33:48,659
to exist outside of the paradigm of

803
00:33:56,649 --> 00:33:51,749
physics so that the observer can observe

804
00:34:01,489 --> 00:33:56,659
the wavefunction and have the state

805
00:34:04,190 --> 00:34:01,499
collapse that you can't have it

806
00:34:07,639 --> 00:34:04,200
collapsed into reality unless it's

807
00:34:09,789 --> 00:34:07,649
observed by a consciousness and that's

808
00:34:11,990 --> 00:34:09,799
what we're doing with the double-slit

809
00:34:14,539 --> 00:34:12,000
experiment trying to show that big

810
00:34:17,030 --> 00:34:14,549
consciousness causes matter to exist

811
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:17,040
once you see that then the consciousness

812
00:34:21,109 --> 00:34:19,290
must exist outside of the matter once

813
00:34:23,839 --> 00:34:21,119
the consciousness must exist outside of

814
00:34:27,639 --> 00:34:23,849
the matter there's no there's nothing

815
00:34:32,059 --> 00:34:27,649
left and so everyone who's who's not

816
00:34:34,010 --> 00:34:32,069
incorporating the implications of

817
00:34:35,630 --> 00:34:34,020
quantum electrodynamics

818
00:34:39,470 --> 00:34:35,640
missing that but I wanted to put

819
00:34:42,260 --> 00:34:39,480
something here but at the end of that

820
00:34:46,419 --> 00:34:42,270
article by in the disc in our yesterday

821
00:34:48,940 --> 00:34:46,429
in the Atlantic by Gideon Lichfield

822
00:34:52,540 --> 00:34:48,950
alkmeenon is quoting Susan Blackmore

823
00:34:55,700 --> 00:34:52,550
okay Susan blackboard arrived skeptic

824
00:34:57,950 --> 00:34:55,710
feels similarly she concluded in her

825
00:35:01,430 --> 00:34:57,960
email to me by building those who

826
00:35:03,950 --> 00:35:01,440
persist in the false and unhelpful black

827
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:03,960
and white comparison between in des has

828
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:07,050
true wonderful spiritual verses in DES

829
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:08,610
that's just a hallucination of no

830
00:35:14,270 --> 00:35:12,330
importance the truth is it seems to me

831
00:35:16,940 --> 00:35:14,280
that's there's no black more the truth

832
00:35:19,460 --> 00:35:16,950
is it seems to me that in des can be a

833
00:35:21,410 --> 00:35:19,470
wonderful life-changing experiences but

834
00:35:23,860 --> 00:35:21,420
shed light on the human condition around

835
00:35:26,780 --> 00:35:23,870
the question of life and death

836
00:35:29,300 --> 00:35:26,790
so are we making shift I think we're

837
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:29,310
making shift for making a shift in in

838
00:35:36,130 --> 00:35:32,970
August of last year Michael Shermer the

839
00:35:38,750 --> 00:35:36,140
skeptic magazine into a specific for

840
00:35:40,490 --> 00:35:38,760
Scientific American he had quite an

841
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:40,500
experience at his wedding and he

842
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:41,970
described it may August issue

843
00:35:48,620 --> 00:35:46,290
it was absolutely unworldly and it was

844
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:48,630
not an anomaly he doesn't know I do it I

845
00:35:53,810 --> 00:35:51,330
just interviewed dr. Michael Shermer a

846
00:35:55,730 --> 00:35:53,820
few weeks ago there is absolutely no

847
00:35:57,260 --> 00:35:55,740
change in his position and when I

848
00:36:01,580 --> 00:35:57,270
interviewed him when I talked to him

849
00:36:03,830 --> 00:36:01,590
about was his 2003 article on near-death

850
00:36:07,790 --> 00:36:03,840
experience researcher dr. PIM van Lommel

851
00:36:10,610 --> 00:36:07,800
where he completely distorted the

852
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:10,620
conclusions of Van Lamas work in order

853
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:12,930
to support his pet theory that it could

854
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:15,810
all just be explained by brain stuff so

855
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:18,330
you know Shurmur hasn't moved at all and

856
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:21,210
i think about you know he has and i just

857
00:36:25,490 --> 00:36:23,490
talked him and I think if you talk so he

858
00:36:28,190 --> 00:36:25,500
published this thing about his it this

859
00:36:31,550 --> 00:36:28,200
is what these guys do and it's the

860
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:31,560
classic co-opt strategy it's the it's

861
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:33,090
the oh yeah I've an extraordinary

862
00:36:38,330 --> 00:36:34,890
experience and don't worry guys we'll

863
00:36:41,240 --> 00:36:38,340
get around to explaining that inside our

864
00:36:42,380 --> 00:36:41,250
model and then it won't be supernatural

865
00:36:44,180 --> 00:36:42,390
it won't be paranormal

866
00:36:46,220 --> 00:36:44,190
it'll be normal I've interviewed

867
00:36:47,510 --> 00:36:46,230
Blackmore as well I interviewed her five

868
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:47,520
years ago and she

869
00:36:50,750 --> 00:36:48,930
she doesn't have a clue on near-death

870
00:36:53,450 --> 00:36:50,760
experience research because she doesn't

871
00:36:55,130 --> 00:36:53,460
stay current on it but she still throws

872
00:36:56,900 --> 00:36:55,140
out these little things and I think if

873
00:36:59,180 --> 00:36:56,910
you really parse what she's saying and

874
00:37:00,770 --> 00:36:59,190
if you really pushed her on it she would

875
00:37:02,870 --> 00:37:00,780
say the same thing is Shermer

876
00:37:04,580 --> 00:37:02,880
she'd say all this nights nice stuff to

877
00:37:06,740 --> 00:37:04,590
placate the people who've had a

878
00:37:08,390 --> 00:37:06,750
near-death experience and then she'd say

879
00:37:11,060 --> 00:37:08,400
but don't worry we're going to explain

880
00:37:11,750 --> 00:37:11,070
away what's really going on in your

881
00:37:14,900 --> 00:37:11,760
brain

882
00:37:17,780 --> 00:37:14,910
I like what derange says he says that's

883
00:37:19,490 --> 00:37:17,790
their job they're not going to do

884
00:37:24,070 --> 00:37:19,500
anything that's going to threaten the

885
00:37:26,420 --> 00:37:24,080
job but they're moving

886
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:26,430
they are the shift is happening

887
00:37:31,460 --> 00:37:29,010
maybe we'll see and maybe you guys will

888
00:37:34,250 --> 00:37:31,470
will lead the charge over there at ions

889
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:34,260
I sure hope so I just wish we'd be a

890
00:37:39,950 --> 00:37:37,130
little bit more on point with our

891
00:37:41,780 --> 00:37:39,960
near-death experience science and really

892
00:37:44,420 --> 00:37:41,790
directing where that goes because I

893
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:44,430
think we jump around and say near-death

894
00:37:49,310 --> 00:37:47,490
experience science will believe the

895
00:37:51,530 --> 00:37:49,320
charge and go oh no over here you know

896
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:51,540
Dean Radin ions will do it over here you

897
00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:55,050
know Mario Beauregard and his ideas will

898
00:37:58,790 --> 00:37:57,090
I mean near-death experience we need to

899
00:38:00,500 --> 00:37:58,800
have a clear path forward in terms of

900
00:38:03,020 --> 00:38:00,510
where that science is going and if we

901
00:38:05,660 --> 00:38:03,030
leave it in the hands of the likes of

902
00:38:07,670 --> 00:38:05,670
dr. Sam Varney it's going to be co-opted

903
00:38:09,590 --> 00:38:07,680
and we're going to be on that treadmill

904
00:38:14,720 --> 00:38:09,600
going nowhere for the next 20 years

905
00:38:17,330 --> 00:38:14,730
that's my prediction well I think that

906
00:38:18,590 --> 00:38:17,340
my prediction Alexes is sort of the

907
00:38:21,950 --> 00:38:18,600
opposite of yours they're actually

908
00:38:24,980 --> 00:38:21,960
moving seventy percent of people 72

909
00:38:27,349 --> 00:38:24,990
percent believe there's an afterlife and

910
00:38:29,630 --> 00:38:27,359
they have reason to believe that and the

911
00:38:31,580 --> 00:38:29,640
work I do now in the mediumship and ice

912
00:38:33,380 --> 00:38:31,590
that's good money from i-70 for the last

913
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:33,390
nine years of the study and mediumship

914
00:38:38,810 --> 00:38:36,570
very heavily and I bring spirit through

915
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:38,820
all the time with absolute evidence I

916
00:38:41,900 --> 00:38:40,170
can't figure out where it's coming from

917
00:38:43,670 --> 00:38:41,910
of course the materials to say I pick it

918
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:43,680
up from some kind of vehicle here

919
00:38:48,410 --> 00:38:45,570
intimate Akashic record you know hold

920
00:38:50,390 --> 00:38:48,420
that universe I picked it up from the

921
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:50,400
mom off the surface of things it's been

922
00:38:54,349 --> 00:38:52,290
be cohered on to the surface and I'm

923
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:54,359
just picking up these vibrations of

924
00:38:58,820 --> 00:38:56,010
course they don't believe in ESP either

925
00:39:00,780 --> 00:38:58,830
but they'll say that I'm what I'm doing

926
00:39:03,450 --> 00:39:00,790
when I bring through somebody's

927
00:39:04,740 --> 00:39:03,460
parted grandmother from 1894 and I have

928
00:39:06,180 --> 00:39:04,750
her name and I know what she looked like

929
00:39:07,890 --> 00:39:06,190
and they later in the picture and I

930
00:39:09,330 --> 00:39:07,900
think I heard her nickname and

931
00:39:11,340 --> 00:39:09,340
everything else are named in an offense

932
00:39:12,690 --> 00:39:11,350
and I bring that through because I've

933
00:39:14,550 --> 00:39:12,700
learned how to do this and it's been

934
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:14,560
thousands of dollars traveling the world

935
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:16,530
to learn how to do this for ten years

936
00:39:20,910 --> 00:39:19,330
whenever I went through and and the

937
00:39:22,910 --> 00:39:20,920
lighting society's testing and

938
00:39:25,410 --> 00:39:22,920
everything else to see how that's done

939
00:39:26,910 --> 00:39:25,420
they'll turn around the face or you just

940
00:39:28,950 --> 00:39:26,920
you're reading their behinds with the F

941
00:39:31,110 --> 00:39:28,960
P and then then this week they'll turn

942
00:39:35,430 --> 00:39:31,120
around and say yeah but ESP doesn't work

943
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:35,440
either so how do I get that information

944
00:39:38,910 --> 00:39:36,970
I don't like stand there in front of a

945
00:39:41,670 --> 00:39:38,920
congregation and pull in somebody's

946
00:39:43,410 --> 00:39:41,680
grandma from 1894 tell you what her hair

947
00:39:45,450 --> 00:39:43,420
looks like what her name is what a

948
00:39:47,850 --> 00:39:45,460
nickname is what she died of

949
00:39:49,980 --> 00:39:47,860
and then bring a message through to the

950
00:39:52,950 --> 00:39:49,990
to the consider that's sitting there and

951
00:39:54,510 --> 00:39:52,960
I say your grandma says I love you

952
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:54,520
though I never knew you and then the

953
00:39:57,060 --> 00:39:56,290
person confirms the grandma died before

954
00:40:00,810 --> 00:39:57,070
she was born

955
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:00,820
and Reese kind of think how do I do that

956
00:40:05,550 --> 00:40:03,610
I'm amazed myself at how I do it you

957
00:40:07,770 --> 00:40:05,560
know I become you tree when that's

958
00:40:09,690 --> 00:40:07,780
coming into my head my thought process

959
00:40:12,330 --> 00:40:09,700
is Alan where are you getting this it's

960
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:12,340
so special but from Leslie Ohio of

961
00:40:16,770 --> 00:40:13,930
course is coming from somebody else

962
00:40:18,990 --> 00:40:16,780
coming in spirit that's what our 2012

963
00:40:21,180 --> 00:40:19,000
study it and let in society shows but

964
00:40:23,930 --> 00:40:21,190
unions are receiving something through

965
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:23,940
their feelings their ears or their eyes

966
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:27,850
that's what scientists they're gonna

967
00:40:33,090 --> 00:40:30,010
have to come along with us one of these

968
00:40:35,940 --> 00:40:33,100
days because each of those materialists

969
00:40:37,860 --> 00:40:35,950
is where they're putting it their head

970
00:40:39,540 --> 00:40:37,870
in the sand like an ostrich or the

971
00:40:41,130 --> 00:40:39,550
Clinton blinders or anything I'm not

972
00:40:44,870 --> 00:40:41,140
going to look at the data that you

973
00:40:46,500 --> 00:40:44,880
people are developing I won't do it

974
00:40:48,780 --> 00:40:46,510
that's the problem

975
00:40:51,240 --> 00:40:48,790
but 72 percent of people do believe in

976
00:40:54,870 --> 00:40:51,250
this stuff because there's a personal

977
00:40:58,400 --> 00:40:54,880
strength and I'm getting more and more

978
00:41:01,050 --> 00:40:58,410
of them all the time and I am

979
00:41:04,230 --> 00:41:01,060
religiously trying to keep the science

980
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:04,240
Twitter and do the science and that's

981
00:41:07,170 --> 00:41:06,010
why I work at all this as hard as I did

982
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:07,180
it to make the science

983
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:11,530
stand up but I'm definitely you

984
00:41:14,620 --> 00:41:13,570
definitely be to be commended for that

985
00:41:17,589 --> 00:41:14,630
and you are

986
00:41:19,930 --> 00:41:17,599
you know knee-deep in deeper than that

987
00:41:24,489 --> 00:41:19,940
in the science and your work with both

988
00:41:27,930 --> 00:41:24,499
ions and the Institute for not both ions

989
00:41:32,829 --> 00:41:27,940
and I am the broker I am denying jet

990
00:41:36,190 --> 00:41:32,839
ions and ions are right I guess yeah

991
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:36,200
ions in the in the Institute so uh Ellen

992
00:41:40,900 --> 00:41:38,450
it's it's been great having you on tell

993
00:41:43,359 --> 00:41:40,910
folks again real quickly about the

994
00:41:46,269 --> 00:41:43,369
conference coming up they'll be able to

995
00:41:48,969 --> 00:41:46,279
register in when this show is published

996
00:41:52,749 --> 00:41:48,979
and they should check it out at the ions

997
00:41:55,989 --> 00:41:52,759
website which is I a and D org is that

998
00:42:00,549 --> 00:41:55,999
correct that's correct and it's a San

999
00:42:03,430 --> 00:42:00,559
Antonio will have on the Thursday we

1000
00:42:05,259 --> 00:42:03,440
have I think we have 18 different

1001
00:42:07,390 --> 00:42:05,269
scientists talking about different parts

1002
00:42:11,799 --> 00:42:07,400
of things and on the weekend we have

1003
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:11,809
over 42 different people speaking yet we

1004
00:42:17,259 --> 00:42:14,930
had 90 people applying to speak since we

1005
00:42:18,549 --> 00:42:17,269
have to we died down to 42 that's very

1006
00:42:21,130 --> 00:42:18,559
difficult if you have to say some

1007
00:42:22,930 --> 00:42:21,140
density numbers Grayson doctor this

1008
00:42:26,349 --> 00:42:22,940
person will be there as one of the

1009
00:42:29,799 --> 00:42:26,359
keynote speakers it's um we separated it

1010
00:42:31,420 --> 00:42:29,809
up so that we're trying to make it so

1011
00:42:32,799 --> 00:42:31,430
that you can come for part of the

1012
00:42:35,289 --> 00:42:32,809
weekend and those who want to see the

1013
00:42:37,509 --> 00:42:35,299
science all the nurses and doctors about

1014
00:42:40,029 --> 00:42:37,519
their CTE credits can come on the

1015
00:42:42,959 --> 00:42:40,039
Thursday and get to all the funds and

1016
00:42:46,229 --> 00:42:42,969
get their credits for it and then the

1017
00:42:50,229 --> 00:42:46,239
the people who are more interested in

1018
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:50,239
more general or metaphysical things that

1019
00:42:56,140 --> 00:42:54,410
those those sorts of problems speakers

1020
00:42:58,539 --> 00:42:56,150
are beyond on the weekend so that is

1021
00:43:00,039 --> 00:42:58,549
available to most of the most people are

1022
00:43:01,660 --> 00:43:00,049
not so interested in the sciences that

1023
00:43:06,420 --> 00:43:01,670
you fall asleep unless they're talking

1024
00:43:10,059 --> 00:43:06,430
down a certain so we will do that on the

1025
00:43:12,609 --> 00:43:10,069
separate research easier to do some

1026
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:12,619
people this year so a lot more fun than

1027
00:43:18,339 --> 00:43:15,890
normal great as its on Riverwalk in San

1028
00:43:19,029 --> 00:43:18,349
Antonio Texas it's a great place to

1029
00:43:22,390 --> 00:43:19,039
visit

1030
00:43:24,279 --> 00:43:22,400
we're at the Marriott on Riverwalk well

1031
00:43:26,229 --> 00:43:24,289
that will be a great experience for

1032
00:43:28,180 --> 00:43:26,239
folks so again we'll have a link in the

1033
00:43:30,430 --> 00:43:28,190
show notes for folks to check that out

1034
00:43:32,290 --> 00:43:30,440
it does sound like a great event and we

1035
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:32,300
sure encourage everyone to get out there

1036
00:43:35,109 --> 00:43:33,650
who's interested in check it out

1037
00:43:37,870 --> 00:43:35,119
especially here from the Texas area and

1038
00:43:40,420 --> 00:43:37,880
also check it out Allen's excellent

1039
00:43:44,380 --> 00:43:40,430
website a ton of info on their after

1040
00:43:47,500 --> 00:43:44,390
life dot Pro is his URL for that it's

1041
00:43:50,770 --> 00:43:47,510
been great having you on again our guest

1042
00:43:52,260 --> 00:43:50,780
has been dr. Allen Hugin oh and thanks

1043
00:43:55,380 --> 00:43:52,270
so much for joining me today

1044
00:43:57,670 --> 00:43:55,390
you very aqua London glad to be here

1045
00:43:59,710 --> 00:43:57,680
thanks again to dr. Ellen here you know

1046
00:44:01,720 --> 00:43:59,720
for joining me today on skeptic oh one

1047
00:44:03,819 --> 00:44:01,730
question to tee up from this interview

1048
00:44:06,970 --> 00:44:03,829
and that is do you think that near-death

1049
00:44:10,180 --> 00:44:06,980
experience research runs the risk of

1050
00:44:12,579 --> 00:44:10,190
being co-opted by mainstream medical

1051
00:44:15,309 --> 00:44:12,589
research and when I say that I think the

1052
00:44:17,620 --> 00:44:15,319
risk is that we'll see backpedaling and

1053
00:44:19,540 --> 00:44:17,630
soft selling of the big picture

1054
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:19,550
implication of near-death experience

1055
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:21,410
that is that mine doesn't equal brain

1056
00:44:25,900 --> 00:44:23,450
and that neuroscience as we know it is a

1057
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:25,910
failed proposition and that the medical

1058
00:44:30,700 --> 00:44:28,010
model of brain death is a failed

1059
00:44:31,630 --> 00:44:30,710
proposition I think all that has to go

1060
00:44:34,230 --> 00:44:31,640
out the window

1061
00:44:36,730 --> 00:44:34,240
and what I see the potential for is

1062
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:36,740
researchers willing to back off of that

1063
00:44:43,540 --> 00:44:40,010
and pursue these subtle peculiarities of

1064
00:44:45,609 --> 00:44:43,550
this phenomena that sure seems important

1065
00:44:47,620 --> 00:44:45,619
to people and sure seems like it makes a

1066
00:44:49,420 --> 00:44:47,630
big difference in their life and all

1067
00:44:51,460 --> 00:44:49,430
that other crap that you hear from

1068
00:44:54,130 --> 00:44:51,470
science as we know it types that are

1069
00:44:56,890 --> 00:44:54,140
trying to find a convenient way to sweep

1070
00:44:59,290 --> 00:44:56,900
this phenomena under the rug so I've

1071
00:45:01,510 --> 00:44:59,300
kind of shown my hand there and where I

1072
00:45:02,589 --> 00:45:01,520
think this is going but I still want to

1073
00:45:06,190 --> 00:45:02,599
throw the question out there and

1074
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:06,200
generate a dialogue with you my valued

1075
00:45:11,589 --> 00:45:08,690
and wonderfully intelligent skeptical

1076
00:45:13,630 --> 00:45:11,599
listeners of course the place to engage

1077
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:13,640
in this conversation with me is through

1078
00:45:20,319 --> 00:45:17,690
the skeptic Oh website at s ke PTI ke o

1079
00:45:23,050 --> 00:45:20,329
comm you can bounce on over the forum

1080
00:45:25,240 --> 00:45:23,060
quickly join us and talk with folks over

1081
00:45:28,510 --> 00:45:25,250
there you can leave a message right on

1082
00:45:31,540 --> 00:45:28,520
the website or Facebook me or email me

1083
00:45:33,970 --> 00:45:31,550
directly I have a number of interesting

1084
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:33,980
shows coming up including an interview

1085
00:45:39,550 --> 00:45:36,890
with dr. Evan Thompson that that

1086
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:39,560
directly follows up on this idea of

1087
00:45:43,510 --> 00:45:41,090
near-death experience

1088
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:43,520
science and where some of the mainstream

1089
00:45:48,220 --> 00:45:46,130
folks are trying to take it that's

1090
00:45:50,710 --> 00:45:48,230
coming up in a few weeks I have a number

1091
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:50,720
of other interesting shows either

1092
00:45:55,620 --> 00:45:53,450
recorded or being recorded as well I do